Charlottesville

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I can see a distinction bt a statue to the conferderate soldiers and to someone like Lee. Also, from what I have seen there seems to be a correlation bt when the statues got put up and when significant gains where made by minorities.

And I don't believe for a moment this was solely about a protest to leave statues up. If so, why the vile chants, the use of the torches, etc.

I haven't read all the posts but who are the good people who marched w/the Neo Nazis?

Can someone explain what is meant by "good"?

"And I don't believe for a moment this was solely about a protest to leave statues up"

Agreed, for many of the Nazis, it was just an excuse to vent their garden-variety racist fantasies. I don't think there were too may noted historians in that crowd who were afraid of losing monuments to history.

"why the vile chants"

I can say the same exact thing about Black Lives Matter. Something about wanting dead cops. And they got it. There are jerks out there. That's why the vile chants.

"are the good people who marched w/the Neo Nazis"

I have absolutely no idea, I don't think that was a wise choice of words.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I don't know that removing statues is re-writing history.

In and of itself, it might not be. But it also could be a part of rewriting history. The intent of far left, Marxist, Communist, even Socialist ideology is to replace the evils of human nature with an inflexible, inviolable, benevolent and "correct" governmental authority. That is facilitated by eliminating or "rewriting" historical facts. Authoritarianism has a history of erasing the past it wishes to change. Statues, churches, monuments, works of art, books, ideas, etc., have intentionally been destroyed, burned, erased from reality in order to promote the version of history that authoritarians wish to impose.

If there is a monument that is there just as an historical marker, that's fine. If the statue is a tribute to the man, that's something else. I was in Nashville last year, and saw a state of Robert E Lee. If the plaque said "Robert E Lee fought a battle here", I would have no problem with that. The plaque was an honor to the man, and the last line was something about thanking him "for the noble cause he dedicated to". Now, I can see where that is DEEPLY offensive to a lot of people. The noble cause, was the right to commit treason, for the sake of enslaving his fellow man. You can argue the cause was state's rights I guess.

Someone obviously thought the cause was noble. One of the definitions of noble in Meriam Webster is:
"possessing, characterized by, or arising from superiority of mind or character or of ideals or morals." And the following example of usage is, for instance, "a noble cause."

Biographical and historical accounts of what Lee believed are in line with how he acted. He believed in what he thought were the higher ideals of his culture, even though he believed slavery was wrong. He believed that eventually slavery would disappear. He believed in the Union and preferred that it should be preserved, but he had a moral obligation to abide by the laws of his State of Virginia. He was conflicted, but "nobly" did his duty. He was, it can be argued, an example of a noble character in his time of transition. Some note could be added to the statue's plaque to place his "nobility" in light of current thought. But he was an important person in the evolving character of this nation. And if we are to recognize the characters who shaped this country, the truth of who they were and what they believed is an important part of the story. Or we could just obliterate the past that we don't like, and make shinier the past we think is appropriate. Then we could have a beautiful fiction--which would probably offend a lot of people.

I see the left side on this one. But I also figure if Condaleeza Rice is fine with leaving them up, then why should I care if it doesn't bother her, she has a bigger dog in this hunt then me...

On the other hand, we could obliterate all traces of "offensive" notions in history and create utopia. Not. Basically, much of what humans are or do, is offensive. Some believe humans are an offense to the planet.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

On the other hand, we could obliterate all traces of "offensive" notions in history and create utopia. Not. Basically, much of what humans are or do, is offensive. Some believe humans are an offense to the planet.

There is a lot of fake outrage out there, I agree with you. Paying tribute to those who committed treason for the purposes of maintaining slavery...I think it's worth having a conversation about whether or not that is cruel. I don't care what Webster says, it wasn't a noble cause. It was closer to pure evil, than it was to noble, in my opinion. Just my opinion, reasonable people can disagree, including one of my favorite reasonable people, Dr Condaleeza Rice.
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[JohnR]

Couple things, some of the lore and some of the statues are for the people that led those that defended their homes and some are considered memorials to those that were led and perished. Yes, some use them as symbols of hate.

Many of these statues and those they were modeled after, were part of the recovery from that war. No matter how poorly done.

When the Civil War was over, Lincoln had great hopes to pull people back together and mend our country. That may have happened much better had not some fool actor and his conspirators murdered Lincoln.

Reconstruction after the war was horrible and furthered our division.

Personally, I think it is up to the people that live in the districts to determine, by vote if necessary, on whether or not to remove them from public grounds. Not for those of us far and away to decide for them.

On private grounds, that is more up to the individual facilities.

As a northerner I have no great connection to those leaders but I can learn from them and respect some of their acts while still deploring others.

But we cannot and should not remove history. Thirty years ago I went to Dachacu and it leaves an impression on me to this day. What would some future generation know about the atrocities of WWII and the real Nazis if that is removed?

[Slipknot]

"Before landing the Charlottesville mayor job he previously worked closely with Podesta at the Center of American Progress and worked with him again on Barack Obama’s State Department Transition Team.George Soros, Obama, Podesta, Hillary Clinton and company, are pulling out all the stops to create division through chaos and destruction for one purpose – to destroy President Donald Trump.
Crowds of paid protesters and useful psychopaths are being sent into pitched battle against one another to sour the mood of the nation and further divide us all."

Michael Signer, the mayor of Charlottesville, ordered police to stand down during the most chaotic and destructive period of the protests – despite police protests against the orders.





http://truthuncensored.net/charlotte...ace-war-video/

difficult to believe this is true but if the cops follow orders like sheep, maybe it is true. they want to destroy the country from within. I'm sure this will be reported on MSNBC shortly

listen to the video if you can

[Nebe]

That is a hard one to believe
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[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

"Before landing the Charlottesville mayor job he previously worked closely with Podesta at the Center of American Progress and worked with him again on Barack Obama’s State Department Transition Team.George Soros, Obama, Podesta, Hillary Clinton and company, are pulling out all the stops to create division through chaos and destruction for one purpose – to destroy President Donald Trump.
Crowds of paid protesters and useful psychopaths are being sent into pitched battle against one another to sour the mood of the nation and further divide us all."

Michael Signer, the mayor of Charlottesville, ordered police to stand down during the most chaotic and destructive period of the protests – despite police protests against the orders.





http://truthuncensored.net/charlotte...ace-war-video/

difficult to believe this is true but if the cops follow orders like sheep, maybe it is true. they want to destroy the country from within. I'm sure this will be reported on MSNBC shortly

listen to the video if you can

The truth shall set you free.


http://www.snopes.com/were-police-to...arlottesville/
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The truth shall set you free.


http://www.snopes.com/were-police-to...arlottesville/
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Well, then there might be something to all that Faux media paranoia out there, because I had read that on a couple of other news websites.

Irresponsible journalism???
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[Nebe]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Well, then there might be something to all that Faux media paranoia out there, because I had read that on a couple of other news websites.

Irresponsible journalism???
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Honestly, I'd say yes. The media has orgasms over stuff like this. Race tensions boost ratings and forget about click bait bs "news" sites that get shared all over Facebook.

All I know for sure is that someone wants the people of this country divided and bickering so we can not unite and see that there are some serious crooks fleecing this country at high levels of government... corrupt politicians, government contractors and business owners who are making bank off the back of the 99% of this country.

But those Mexicans!!!! They are the real problem. Bad hombres!!!
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[scottw]

rally in Boston

tomorrow...http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/08/1...-preparations/

I read this article..the headline is BRILLIANT.....lots of consternation, posturing, warning and generally troubling concerns over the crisis of free speech...

it only mentions the organizers one time = "Boston Free Speech Coalition" ????....who????...sounds menacing

never heard of them...what ...like.....5 members registered online or something????

enough to close down the city of Boston for the day apparently?...a hateful word or phrase has yet to be muttered...


Southern Poverty Law Center(as offering advice to Mayor Knucklehead) is mentioned, and whom I've heard of and am very aware of their dubious dealings

what the hell is going on????

these fruitcake politicians and media milk this crap for all it's worth...if it's such a problem don't approve the freaking permit based on all of your moaning and kvetching ....

warning...warning...danger Will Robinson

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Honestly, I'd say yes. The media has orgasms over stuff like this. Race tensions boost ratings and forget about click bait bs "news" sites that get shared all over Facebook.

All I know for sure is that SOMEONE wants the people of this country divided and bickering so we can not unite and see that there are some serious crooks fleecing this country at high levels of government... corrupt politicians, government contractors and business owners who are making bank off the back of the 99% of this country.

But those Mexicans!!!! They are the real problem. Bad hombres!!!
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And you KNOW who that someone is don't you? That's right, George Soros

maybe it is fake, maybe not
All I know is that as time passes, more conspiracy theories have turned out to be reality not theories.


Hopefully the rally in Boston doesn't end up violent of a piss bottle fight. I would not be within 20 miles of that place.

[JohnR]

I think Soros is a tool and generates a lot of crap but I don't think he is behind every conspiracy, no more than Eben's Koch brothers....

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I think Soros is a tool and generates a lot of crap but I don't think he is behind every conspiracy, no more than Eben's Koch brothers....

If you don't think the koch brothers have dirty hands in things, your head is in the sand.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

If you don't think the koch brothers have dirty hands in things, your head is in the sand.
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I would love to hear how they are any different from, say, labor unions...they have huge money, and spend some to advocate for that which they think is right. And they give a ton to charity, but that can't matter.

Harry Reid has called them by name, on the floor of the US Senate, as being dangerous. He is supposed to serve them for Christs sake! Imagine never being even accused of a crime, but having a US Senator declare you to be the enemy...

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Nebe

If you don't think the koch brothers have dirty hands in things, your head is in the sand.
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Fake news... don't believe everything you say... Hard one to believe... Truth will set you free....

Koch Brothers have Dirty Hands!@!!!

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The truth shall set you free.


http://www.snopes.com/were-police-to...arlottesville/
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Just like stand down order in benghazi

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I would love to hear how they are any different from, say, labor unions...they have huge money, and spend some to advocate for that which they think is right. And they give a ton to charity, but that can't matter.

Harry Reid has called them by name, on the floor of the US Senate, as being dangerous. He is supposed to serve them for Christs sake! Imagine never being even accused of a crime, but having a US Senator declare you to be the enemy...

Labor unions work for their members (the little guy) the Koch brothers work for their own self interest..compare them to Soros if you like but your anti labor connections are way off base

[wdmso]

wrong place

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Labor unions work for their members (the little guy) the Koch brothers work for their own self interest..compare them to Soros if you like but your anti labor connections are way off base

Labor unions ARE the members. Saying that the unions work for their members is saying that the members are working for themselves, for, as you say, their own self interest.

Koch Brothers have created wealth out of the work for their own self interest, much of which is distributed (paid) to various unions and "little guys." They have also funded millions to charities as well as supporting cultural entities such as the arts. That is, "little guys" have benefitted from the self interest of the Koch's in many ways. The Koch's have fiscally and culturally profited society through the profits they generated in their self interest.

The "little guys" provided the labor to help the Koch's do their work.

[PaulS]

I like what Mitt Romney said whether he's intended to or not what he communicated caused racist to Rejoice, minorities to weep, and the vast Heart of America to mourn. His apologists train to explain that it didn't mean what we heard but what we heard is now the reality, and unless it is addressed by the president as such with unprecedented kander and strength through May commence and unraveling of our national fabric
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Labor unions ARE the members. Saying that the unions work for their members is saying that the members are working for themselves, for, as you say, their own self interest.

Koch Brothers have created wealth out of the work for their own self interest, much of which is distributed (paid) to various unions and "little guys." They have also funded millions to charities as well as supporting cultural entities such as the arts. That is, "little guys" have benefitted from the self interest of the Koch's in many ways. The Koch's have fiscally and culturally profited society through the profits they generated in their self interest.

The "little guys" provided the labor to help the Koch's do their work.

Do you have the same opinion about Soros ??

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Labor unions work for their members (the little guy) the Koch brothers work for their own self interest..compare them to Soros if you like but your anti labor connections are way off base

"Koch brothers work for their own self interest"

They have over 100,000 employees. Seems to me, that what's good for the company, is good for plenty of little guys.

Here in CT, we have unionized UCONN professors with pensions above $300k year, and the state just stopped funding military honors at funerals for deceased vets.

Those awesome unions, just looking out for the little guy. They did wonders for the little guys in Detroit.

[Jim in CT]

The Koch brothers aren't bankrupting any states. But labor unions sure as hell are.

[buckman]

Couldn't help but notice ,in Boston , those attacking people carrying the Israeli flag were the same ones opposing Nazis . Ironic
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by buckman

Couldn't help but notice ,in Boston , those attacking people carrying the Israeli flag were the same ones opposing Nazis . Ironic
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What Nazis?
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

What Nazis?
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The country is swarming with them… Pay attention man
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[JohnR]

Just saw a guy on FB post a photo of his new IWB holster so he can kill Nazis. Full blown Antifa / Bernie supporter.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Just saw a guy on FB post a photo of his new IWB holster so he can kill Nazis. Full blown Antifa / Bernie supporter.

Don't get near that guy and be mistaken for a Nazi
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

Don't get near that guy and be mistaken for a Nazi
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He's white and he grew up in Germany......that's good enough for them.
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[PaulS]

Nazi/Neo Nazi?

Is that what we should be focusing on here.