Interesting

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

A dirty bomb woudn't make New York inhabitable, and I'm not sure the point of the Taliban reference, but it's pretty clear why we were attacked.

You seem to be very confused as to what's really what in the world. Perhaps that's why everything looks pathetic?

-spence

Enlighten me . Why were we attacked? It's always good to hear from someone who has such a grasp on the reality of a bunch of murdering cowards.I can't even fathom being able to undestand that mentallity. Enlighten us, What was going through their heads as they crashed those planes?

Everything isn't pathetic to me. Just the way you people are always condemning America first. Blame us for being attacked. I'm guessing you didn't feel that way on 9/10 or on 9/11

[Joe]

I would not call the jihadists cowards - they are formidable and willing to lay down their lives without question.
Moreover, they are waging war against the U.S. the only way it can waged: unconventionally, through terrorist tactics.
Terror is the only option to anyone who wishes to confront the U.S. militarily. To confront the modern U.S. military head on using traditional military tactics - is suicidal. If you line up your troops in places where we can get a GPS fix them, then you end up like Iraq's Republican Guard: dead on day one.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Enlighten me . Why were we attacked? It's always good to hear from someone who has such a grasp on the reality of a bunch of murdering cowards.I can't even fathom being able to undestand that mentallity. Enlighten us, What was going through their heads as they crashed those planes?

Everything isn't pathetic to me. Just the way you people are always condemning America first. Blame us for being attacked. I'm guessing you didn't feel that way on 9/10 or on 9/11

We were attacked because a group well financed militant Muslims felt the US was:

1) Behind the Saudi Royal Family who's been very oppressive of their own people (Muslims)
2) Supporting Isreal who's oppressing Palestinian Muslims
3) Ignoring Russia who's oppressing Chechen Muslims
4) Militarily positioned on holy ground

al Qaeda believes the US is the primary hurdle to the establishment of a true Islamic state (in their eyes) and so 9/11 was another in a series of attacks over the past decade to try to get us to but out of the Middle East.

It's really that simple, it's all about our foreign policy. Not because we can have our fries "super sized" and let gay people get hitched.

Bin Laden's indictment of the USA contains a lot of truths, and as such it's been fairly easy for him to gather support from the moderate Islamic base.

To assess reasons why our policy has hurt us is a pragmatic and reasonable action. Perhaps with hindsight we would have done some things differently, and perhaps some of our choices have ultimately let to a net gain for the US and even the World as a whole.

But to call this "blaming America" is really ignoring reality and is simply foolish.

There should be no place for divisive election rhetoric in a real policy discussion, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the current GOP and Administration have done a hundred times over in seek of a permanent republican majority.

And Joe is right, these guys were not cowards. Once again a statement meant only to distract from the real issues.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

We were attacked because a group well financed militant Muslims felt the US was:

1) Behind the Saudi Royal Family who's been very oppressive of their own people (Muslims)
2) Supporting Isreal who's oppressing Palestinian Muslims
3) Ignoring Russia who's oppressing Chechen Muslims
4) Militarily positioned on holy ground

al Qaeda believes the US is the primary hurdle to the establishment of a true Islamic state (in their eyes) and so 9/11 was another in a series of attacks over the past decade to try to get us to but out of the Middle East.

It's really that simple, it's all about our foreign policy. Not because we can have our fries "super sized" and let gay people get hitched.

Bin Laden's indictment of the USA contains a lot of truths, and as such it's been fairly easy for him to gather support from the moderate Islamic base.

To assess reasons why our policy has hurt us is a pragmatic and reasonable action. Perhaps with hindsight we would have done some things differently, and perhaps some of our choices have ultimately let to a net gain for the US and even the World as a whole.

But to call this "blaming America" is really ignoring reality and is simply foolish.

There should be no place for divisive election rhetoric in a real policy discussion, and unfortunately, that's exactly what the current GOP and Administration have done a hundred times over in seek of a permanent republican majority.

And Joe is right, these guys were not cowards. Once again a statement meant only to distract from the real issues.

-spence

And they don't oppress their own? They kill other Muslims for not following their version of Islam. The Talban weren't oppressive? How about Saddam, was he oppressive? So we should cave in to Bin Laden and do what he wants us to do? Everyone knows how to sprinkle some truths into an arguement to sound like your correct. Thats what I do.

I think what they do, Strapping bombs on young,kids and women is cowardly. I think boarding a plane and crashing it into a building is cowardly.I think hiding in a cave and letting your group membrs blow them selfs up all over the world to proof a point that you want to make is cowardly. These people have nothing else and that is why they join with the terrorist. Just like the gangs in America. Most of them just do what their told. For 72 virgins, real rational..

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

And they don't oppress their own? They kill other Muslims for not following their version of Islam. The Talban weren't oppressive? How about Saddam, was he oppressive?

I said above that they do, and al Qaeda would argue that the West enables oppresive Islamic leaders.

Bin Laden has executed a brilliant marketing campaign, and marketing rarely makes an objective statement. You wouldn't have much success inciting a global insurgency if you started off by listing the bad things done in the name if Islam would you?

You asked why they attacked us on 9/11 and I've told you, but you still can't seem to process it.

So we should cave in to Bin Laden and do what he wants us to do? Everyone knows how to sprinkle some truths into an arguement to sound like your correct. Thats what I do.

Not at all, we shoud do everything to eliminate Bin Laden and his ilk. But we should also focus on addressing the very issues that have allowed his message to fester within the moderate Islamic world.

Bush's policy has made this challenge even more difficult as our global standing has been so diminished under his leadership.

These people have nothing else and that is why they join with the terrorist. Just like the gangs in America. Most of them just do what their told. For 72 virgins, real rational..

I think the real evidence out there would indicate just the opposite. Bin Laden left a family of limitless wealth. Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from a middle class background. Many Palestenian suicide bombers are from more successful families and many are not even fundamentalist Muslims.

Again it goes back to the characterization of terrorists as crazy which is a dangerous position to take. If you believe they are not rational, then how would you predict their actions? Terrorisim is in fact quite predictable if you're able to understand what motivates them.

Quite often, it's simply rage.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I said above that they do, and al Qaeda would argue that the West enables oppresive Islamic leaders.

Bin Laden has executed a brilliant marketing campaign, and marketing rarely makes an objective statement. You wouldn't have much success inciting a global insurgency if you started off by listing the bad things done in the name if Islam would you?

You asked why they attacked us on 9/11 and I've told you, but you still can't seem to process it.


Not at all, we shoud do everything to eliminate Bin Laden and his ilk. But we should also focus on addressing the very issues that have allowed his message to fester within the moderate Islamic world.

Bush's policy has made this challenge even more difficult as our global standing has been so diminished under his leadership.


I think the real evidence out there would indicate just the opposite. Bin Laden left a family of limitless wealth. Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from a middle class background. Many Palestenian suicide bombers are from more successful families and many are not even fundamentalist Muslims.

Again it goes back to the characterization of terrorists as crazy which is a dangerous position to take. If you believe they are not rational, then how would you predict their actions? Terrorisim is in fact quite predictable if you're able to understand what motivates them.

Quite often, it's simply rage.

-spence

Spence, it sounds like you have all the answers. I'm sure someone who can predict terrorist attacks could come in real handy. Sounds like your quite impressed with Bin Laden. Your wrong about why these people do what they do. The young Palistines believe they will be made marters and their familys are paid by Hammas. Look at the few idiot Americans that joined the Taliban. They were for the most part confused,spoiled little pukes who needed a cause and were looking to feel like they had a purpose in life. We have a lot of them in this country.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Spence, it sounds like you have all the answers. I'm sure someone who can predict terrorist attacks could come in real handy. Sounds like your quite impressed with Bin Laden. Your wrong about why these people do what they do. The young Palistines believe they will be made marters and their familys are paid by Hammas. Look at the few idiot Americans that joined the Taliban. They were for the most part confused,spoiled little pukes who needed a cause and were looking to feel like they had a purpose in life. We have a lot of them in this country.

Predict isn't the same thing as predictable, and yes Bin Laden is quite impressive. Unfortunately for him he seems to believe he's a larger figure in history than he really is, and his long-term solutions to the plight of oppressed people aren't looking all that viable.

But once again you're mixing motives, reasons and root causes.

Studies have been done on Palestenian suicide bombers and while some may believe in martyrdom many are not even all that religious and do it simply because they're conned into believing it will make a difference. They are full of rage and don't see any more attractive options...

The 9/11 attack wasn't a group gambit for virgins, it happened for real reasons as I've detailed above.

I don't have all the answers, but I have done the work to at least try to understand what the heck is going on. To do so requires you lower your guard a bit, but I think it makes you stronger as a result.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Again it goes back to the characterization of terrorists as crazy which is a dangerous position to take. If you believe they are not rational, then how would you predict their actions?
-spence

Spence and Nebe, yes or no answer - Was Hitler crazy?

Germany was a dump post WWI. The Germans were oppressed and taken advantage of by the Allies victory. People were starving (literally) The Nazi party brought back industry, culture and most Germans lives improved dramatically. The NAZI party was a godsend to the German people in the 1930s. Banking and other financial institutions were peimarily operated by the Jews. Using all of your logic with Bin LAden. Hitler was justified in his actions.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Using all of your logic with Bin LAden. Hitler was justified in his actions.

This makes no sense what so ever.

-spence