nts to pay off unins to stop whining about Obamacare

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I'm actually in favor of universal healthcare but WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.

And that there is the irony.

-spence

[justplugit]

I'm in favor of Healthcare for the 30 million that don't have it. But to change the health care of 300 million citizens for the sake of 30 million is stupid, unless of course your a Socialist.

And no, we can't afford Obamacare. Projections show healthcare costs
will increase 5.8% annually through 2022 which will be 1% faster annually
than our projected economic growth. The CBO upped projected costs again last week.

A special program for the 30 million without insurance, including Tort Reform and
allowing Interstate Insurance would be a way to go rather than upset the whole apple cart.

A 100% change for 30% defies common sense. With all the so called "Brilliance"
of this Administration,it should certainly be able come up with a better more affordable plan
for those who don't have healthcare.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

And that there is the irony.

-spence

When we annually spend 600billion to 1 trillion more dollars than we take in receipts - yes, we can't afford it.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I'm in favor of Healthcare for the 30 million that don't have it. But to change the health care of 300 million citizens for the sake of 30 million is stupid, unless of course your a Socialist.

And no, we can't afford Obamacare. Projections show healthcare costs
will increase 5.8% annually through 2022 which will be 1% faster annually
than our projected economic growth. The CBO upped projected costs again last week.

A special program for the 30 million without insurance, including Tort Reform and
allowing Interstate Insurance would be a way to go rather than upset the whole apple cart.

A 100% change for 30% defies common sense. With all the so called "Brilliance"
of this Administration,it should certainly be able come up with a better more affordable plan
for those who don't have healthcare.

How much has it been rising at present? Same, more, less?

How is it we spend so much more per capita than other developed natoons?

Last # I saw was 49 mil from Atnea, 2011 number....

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

When we annually spend 600billion to 1 trillion more dollars than we take in receipts - yes, we can't afford it.

The irony is that I believe we spend about twice what other industrialized nations spend on health care...but we can't afford it.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

The irony is that I believe we spend about twice what other industrialized nations spend on health care...but we can't afford it.

-spence

I think it's the same with education . Truth be told we do have the best health care .... Not so much for education
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Raider Ronnie]

Where do we rank compared to the rest of the world for deadbeat handouts (welfare) ?

Bet we are number 1 & number 2 is not close !




QUOTE=buckman;1014693]I think it's the same with education . Truth be told we do have the best health care .... Not so much for education
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device[/QUOTE]
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I think it's the same with education . Truth be told we do have the best health care .... Not so much for education
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

This was rated not to long ago by the WHO...The US came in 37th.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

This was rated not to long ago by the WHO...The US came in 37th.

-spence

You are correct . And 1 in spending .
I don't anticipate either ranking being improved with Obama care
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

How much has it been rising at present? Same, more, less?

How is it we spend so much more per capita than other developed natoons?

Last # I saw was 49 mil from Atnea, 2011 number....

#1 The projection of the 5.8% included 2011 to 2022.

#2 We spend more per capita because of the advanced diagnostic and treatment
regimens we have, many used to protect the physician from law suites when
lesser cost tests etc. would be enough . Thus the need for Tort reform.

#3 Atnea just dropped out of NJ because of Obamacare so evidently they are
concerned about rising costs and less profits.

[Fishpart]

In edumacation we are 12th and spend SEVEN TIMES the next highest spending country, talk about success.....

Don't worry once we get healthcare costs down all the innovations that the manufactures fund with their profits can come from maybe Canada or Hati? Next question, why do doctors from Canada come to the US to train???

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Fishpart

Next question, why do doctors from Canada come to the US to train???

Yes, and why from all over the world ?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnR

When we annually spend 600billion to 1 trillion more dollars than we take in receipts - yes, we can't afford it.

but John, but John....what about all of the women and children dying in the streets because they've been turned away from hospitals because they could not afford unaffordable healthcare????? surely we can afford it?????

sure we can....."YES WE CAN".....haven't you heard that increasing our debt ceiling and exploding our spending isn't really spending more money or increasing our debt (it's actually the path out of debt), it's simply paying for promises and money that we've already spent and we've already promised OBAMACARE and we're not a Banana Republic(though there are a lot of similarities currently) and we aren't deadbeats and we pay our bills or at least borrow more money to pay our bills....we need to expect to spend or need to spend whatever we have to spend to keep people moderately happy and crooks in office regardless of their actual needs, whatever figure you ascribe to healthcare cost is going to be spent by "WE" anyway right?.... so it makes much more sense to have the government provide it for everyone and do whatever it deems necessary to either pay for it, promise to pay for it or claim or arrange to pay for it at some undetermined point in the future at the same time constantly referring to it as "affordable" like everything else that they currently "pay" for....

just raise the OBAMACARE CEILING, which I believe has already been raised several times and significantly, just keep raising.....who cares???

everything appears "affordable" when you don't have a budget...or a conscience

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by scottw

but John, but John....what about all of the women and children dying in the streets because they've been turned away from hospitals because they could not afford unaffordable healthcare????? surely we can afford it?????

sure we can....."YES WE CAN".....haven't you heard that increasing our debt ceiling and exploding our spending isn't really spending more money or increasing our debt (it's actually the path out of debt), it's simply paying for promises and money that we've already spent and we've already promised OBAMACARE and we're not a Banana Republic(though there are a lot of similarities currently) and we aren't deadbeats and we pay our bills or at least borrow more money to pay our bills....we need to expect to spend or need to spend whatever we have to spend to keep people moderately happy and crooks in office regardless of their actual needs, whatever figure you ascribe to healthcare cost is going to be spent by "WE" anyway right?.... so it makes much more sense to have the government provide it for everyone and do whatever it deems necessary to either pay for it, promise to pay for it or claim or arrange to pay for it at some undetermined point in the future at the same time constantly referring to it as "affordable" like everything else that they currently "pay" for....

just raise the OBAMACARE CEILING, which I believe has already been raised several times and significantly, just keep raising.....who cares???

everything appears "affordable" when you don't have a budget...or a conscience

Since, in our great democracy, We The People are ultimately the government, or so we were once led to believe, we need to return back to each individual citizen a piece of the power we relinquished to the few folks who act as overlords. We originally gave them a few, but important, duties and left the greater responsibilities for our lives to ourselves. Since they have decided that we are not capable of fulfilling those responsibilities, and taken them from us, and showed how it can be done, we should now, having learned from them how to do it, take back those responsibilities now fully armed by the knowledge imparted to us by their superior wisdom. We can now solve our problems in the way they have showed us. We can demand, through our representatives (ha-ha) that we each can "monetize" our debt by selling individual securities (backed by the full faith and credit of our government which is ultimately We The People) to the Federal Reserve. And we can each have unlimited spending power backed by unlimited borrowing (monetizing) power (supported by annual debt ceiling raises) enabling each of us to enjoy all the fruits of whatever anyone else (if they still exist) produces. Why should we leave such power to "representatives" and those who supposedly serve us (for our own good) if we can keep it for ourselves.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by scottw

this represents your average conversation with a liberal/progressive though...

Jim points out that many Unions are unhappy with Obamacare, along with so much of the nation and that they want special treatment from their buddies

Spence replies suggesting that Jim has no idea what he's talking about and blames it all on some unnamed Republican

Eben then rambles on some nonsense about how this is all the fault of peak sustainable capitalism, which sounds too much like peak oil and sustainability(catch phrases) rolled up in a ball....or something but doesn't have time to elaborate

and of course...

I'd be afraid to answer that these days, like putting a target on your shirt, unless you are Lefty Rich, then you are the BEST!

oh, brother Hope and Change!

I am not happy with it because i will be taxed on it in the future

[spence]

One of the best rants I've seen in a while...watch the whole thing.

http://www.upworthy.com/his-first-4-...k-2?g=2&c=ufb1

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

The irony is that I believe we spend about twice what other industrialized nations spend on health care...but we can't afford it.

-spence

Who are referring to when you say "we"? Can you afford what you pay for health care? Are you going into unsustainable debt because of it? "We" can bitch about the constantly rising costs, but we pay them. If we didn't the health care industry could not exist. And who are the "we" of "other industrialized nations"? Are they individual citizens or are they governments? And are those governments spending their nations into debt?

And is the health care you get worse than what those in "other industrialized nations" get? Are "we" who pay through third party insurance or out of pocket getting worse healthcare than those in "other industrialized" nations. And if the health care that "we" who pay for it is worse, how will Obamacare make it better for us who pay?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And is the health care you get worse than what those in "other industrialized nations" get? Are "we" who pay through third party insurance or out of pocket getting worse healthcare than those in "other industrialized" nations. And if the health care that "we" who pay for it is worse, how will Obamacare make it better for us who pay?

And that there is the irony....

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Before you guys get too far off topic, can I just remind everyone again that Jim got this story completely wrong. Hell if anything he should be praising the POTUS.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Spence, according to what I posted (which may not have been true, I'm sure you know more than those folks) the White House was considering a bill which would offer subsidies to those in labor unions.

And Spence, let's not forget...when Obamacare was first passed, Obama said the bill would tax cadillac health plans, EXCEPT for those in unions . The country went berserk, and Obama backed off. But his initial thought was to tax all cadillac health plans, except those for union members. He thought that was, somehow, fair.

Try making that wrong, comrade.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Before you guys get too far off topic, can I just remind everyone again that Jim got this story completely wrong. Hell if anything he should be praising the POTUS.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Instead of lobbing insults, please tell us with specificity, how I got this all wrong. Is it incorrect to say that the White House was considering subsidies for unions, Spence?

As I said, Obama tried to give subsidies to the unions, right off the bat with Obamacare, in the form of a tax loophole for cadillac plans that were for unions. Do you deny that? Want me to dredge that up for you?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

You need to reach out a little, there is no story here.

Unions claimed their members should be exempt, the White House said no.

Your story isn't about reality, it's about a Republican lawmaker's stunt to pass a bill for a problem that doesn't exist.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ion-96793.html

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Spence, from your very own post...

"the White House looked at several ways to make the union plans eligible for subsidies "

In other words, the White House wanted to pay off the unions for political suport, but try as they might, they couldn't come up with a way to do it.

Spence, what does it say to you, that Obama wanted to give the unions this kickback. Why does Obama want to give $$ to those who work in a union, but not give $$ to someone doing the same job, for the same pay, with the same healthcare, but in a non-unionized capacity? Spence, what does it say to you, that if Obama had his way, everyone who voted for Romney would subsidize those who voted for him? You're OK with that?

Obama sincerely wanted to pay them off, his advisors told him that it wouldn't fly. And Spence sees this as something we should praise Obama for.

Now, that is an apologist...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The core problem here is the fatal flaw with capitalism. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer..
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Nebe, all of us hate the fact that poverty exists. But can you name an economic system that provides more upward economic mobility than capitalism?

It's harder to avoid poverty than it used to be...used to be you could get C's in high school, get your diploma, and walk into a manufacturing plant and be middle class. Not so anymore.

So what's a poor person to do?
[LIST]
Get good grades.
Go to college, major in engineering, accounting, or anything related to healthcare (pharmacy, physical therapy, physicians assistant, etc)
Not college material? Learn a specialized trade, or join the military.
Don't make babies until you are self-sufficient.

How hard is that? Harder than it used to be, but for the vast majority of us, it's within reach. And we owe it to those few who don't have the necessary tools, to take care of them.

Drive through a big city, and the poverty I see isn't huge numbers of people who are biologically precluded from going to college. I see huge numbers of people who made Godawful choices - like voting for liberal Democrats who are hellbent on guaranteeing the continuation of poverty, by making poor people addicted to a sense of welfare and entitlement...

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

In other words, the White House wanted to pay off the unions for political suport, but try as they might, they couldn't come up with a way to do it.

No, you still have it backwards. The unions came to the Administration asking for easement. The Treasury department looked at their claim and denied it.

Your subconscious bias is so strong you don't even know when it's happening.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

No, you still have it backwards. The unions came to the Administration asking for easement. The Treasury department looked at their claim and denied it.

Your subconscious bias is so strong you don't even know when it's happening.

-spence

From the article you posted, Spence...

""the White House looked at several ways to make the union plans eligible for subsidies "

Spence, maybe it was the Treasury Dept who told the unions "no". That was after the White House attempted to find a way to give the unions what they wanted.

You are acting as if the immediate answer was "no, that wouldn't be fair". If that were the case, I would commend the President for that. But according to you own source, the White House wanted to give the unions a kickback. And it's that fact, which clearly shows that Obama, despite his campaign promises, wants to give kickbacks to his political allies.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

From the article you posted, Spence...

""the White House looked at several ways to make the union plans eligible for subsidies "

Spence, maybe it was the Treasury Dept who told the unions "no". That was after the White House attempted to find a way to give the unions what they wanted.

You are acting as if the immediate answer was "no, that wouldn't be fair". If that were the case, I would commend the President for that. But according to you own source, the White House wanted to give the unions a kickback. And it's that fact, which clearly shows that Obama, despite his campaign promises, wants to give kickbacks to his political allies.

Now you're just making things up.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Now you're just making things up.

-spence

Again Spence, a direct quote from the link that you posted...

"the White House looked at several ways to make the union plans eligible for subsidies "

What did I make up, exactly? Please be specific now...

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

What did I make up, exactly? Please be specific now...

Jim, Spence is a Bob Dylan fan when it comes to answering questions-

"the answer my friend is blowin in the wind, the answer is blowin in the wind"

Still gotta luv the guy though.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Jim, Spence is a Bob Dylan fan when it comes to answering questions-

"the answer my friend is blowin in the wind, the answer is blowin in the wind"

Still gotta luv the guy though.

Absolutely, I luv the guy.

What I don't luv, is that his vote counts the same as mine...

[spence]

Why would the Whitehouse give an immediate answer? If the unions made a reasonable and potentially legal claim shouldn't that be investigated? I haven't read anywhere that the Whitehouse was leading any effort to placate the unions...and the Treasury reports to the Executive Branch just in case you forgot.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Why would the Whitehouse give an immediate answer? If the unions made a reasonable and potentially legal claim shouldn't that be investigated? I haven't read anywhere that the Whitehouse was leading any effort to placate the unions...and the Treasury reports to the Executive Branch just in case you forgot.

-spence

Spence, what legal (or moral) basis could there be, to give subsidies to unionized workers, but not to an otherwise-identical non-unionized worker?

I brought this up before, and you ignored it, so I'll do it again for laughs...

Whan Obamacare first came out, one feature was that it taxed the so-called 'cadillac healthcare plans', unless the insured was in a union. You tell me, Spence, how is that proper legislative practice, and not a payoff?

We are all ears...

And I have a question for you in the other post I started yesterday, regarding Obama's flip-flop on raising the debt ceiling, which Obama described as "un-patriotic" when a Republican was president...when Bush proposed it, it was un-patriotic. Now that Obama is proposing it, it seems unpatriotic to oppose it. Why is that, Spence? Maybe now, Obama is hoping that the US will be the one-millionth customer of the Bank Of China, and that we get a prize for that?