Van Staal [SIZE="1"]made in china[/SIZE]

[cheferson]

Did they really move manufacturing to china???

[JohnR]

Where did you hear this? Hope not...

[cheferson]

the other site

[Pete_G]

Definitely true.

Although I have to say they gave the shop one early this year with the usual instructions to try and destroy it. They wouldn't tell us what was new other then that it was different until a couple days go.

The anodizing was better (we didn't put 2 and 2 together at the time), it was smoother, and it caught a lot of fish.

Sad though, regardless.

[cheferson]

Originally Posted by Pete_G

Definitely true.

Although I have to say they gave the shop one early this year with the usual instructions to try and destroy it. They wouldn't tell us what was new other then that it was different until a couple days go.

The anodizing was better (we didn't put 2 and 2 together at the time), it was smoother, and it caught a lot of fish.

Sad though, regardless.

No negative differences? Same parts and materials? Are they gonna knock the price back??

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by cheferson

No negative differences? Same parts and materials? Are they gonna knock the price back??

It's the same exact reel as far as I know. Just made there. We tried for a long time to identify what was different about the one we got and there's just nothing obvious.

I highly doubt you'd see a price drop and I haven't heard anything at all about price change.

If the Saltiga and Stellas having some parts made out of cast metal still sell for $600 to $700 made overseas there's just no way I can see a price drop on similarly priced but instead all machined reel made overseas.

[maddog2020]

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that.

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label.

[joe the plumber]

Originally Posted by maddog2020

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that.

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label.

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

[Mike P]

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

[tattoobob]

Originally Posted by joe the plumber

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

Van Staal Service
6109 E. Apache
Tulsa, OK 74115

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

Could not POSSIBLY AGREE WITH YOU ANY MORE .
You are 100% correct Sir.
Big Corp America. Save a bundle on manufacturing costs by giving jobs away to a country that builds childrens toys with Lead Paint, and don't give the consumer even a penny break. Just pocket the additional profits.The new American way, everyone is doing it so it must be ok ? SAD.

[fcap60]

Unforunate yes, suprising no.

Nobody should really be suprised by this. It's like many other products once made in the USA that are now being maufactured overseas where production costs are lower.

Let's just hope that the quality remains superior. Who knows, maybe the prices will come down once production is perfected.

It wasn't that long ago that many of us objected to owning ASIAN made automobiles claiming that quality was inferior. Let's see what happens with these VS'

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS

I just offered my opinion. I know what it costs to make a Stella, I know what it costs to make a VS in the US, and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

As for the rest of it, it's just what it is. It's not an apology. People asked a few questions so I answered. 1. They're made in China. 2. They look, feel, and are the same. Do what you want with the truth.

Lastly, I'm not a "pro-staffer"...

[spence]

Doesn't surprise me at all. This is a very common issue with many luxery goods.

A niche brand with a strong legacy struggles to maintain quality and profit. They are bought by a larger group who seeks to make profit from the brand identity, but to do so need to scale sales to a broader audience. The old production methods don't scale well so production is moved offshore where it's cheaper.

Then the brand is milked for all it's worth. While the new owner leverages the brand identity and touts the legacy quality to justify a continued high (or even higher price) the actual methods end up turning out something that simply wasn't what it once was.

Now that's not to say that you can't make a quality product in China, but it may not be what marketing continues to push.

Soon enough though, some smaller niche vendors will step up and start the cycle again.

-spence

[Nebe]

pffft.

[Diamond Tackle]

It must be Chistmas, cause Spence and I finally agree on something .

Zebco(wc Bradley co.) bought the BRAND name, whatever patents , & what is called "good will" thats all they really care about. Sure there was tooling and parts inventory ,but thats secondary.
They knew right from the getgo that manufacturing in china would give them economies of scale or whatever you wanna call it.
They want YOU, the Van Staal fanatic(and you guys really are fanatical about them I gotta say) to PUSH that Brand name while they reap all the profits.
The comparison with autos out of Japan in the '70's is not really a fair one. Japan had/has a work ethic . Qulity control is definitely not an easy task in China. Im sure Mattel Toys thought they had quality control sorted out pretty good too.
But, The product may ultimately be great, heck it may even IMPROVE in quality. Noone can guess what will happen, but one thing for sure, they wont be passing ANY savings on to you . They will just make more Van Staal hats with the new profits.

[Flaptail]

VanZebco Fabrique au Chinois, tres, tres, ow you say, Funny!

I love it!

[Chefskeez6]

I would be willing to pay about $200 more for something made in the USA.

Zee cough Baas cough. Made in Connecticut.

[cheferson]

WIll they be available at Wal-mart now??

[Nebe]

Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen.

[bart]

what a bunch of bullshat. how is the price not going to drop? they obviously moved the operations over there so that the cost of manufacturing would be less.

F VS. i'll be fishing my 704s until they explode.....which isn't going to happen anytime soon...

[Striperhound]

The only potential issue I see with manufacturing in china is a potental recall for lead

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by maddog2020

I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet.

You need to talk to Kenny "Cowhunter". I think his grand total was 5 VS 250s DOA. I was fishing with Crazy Al the night his VS came apart in his hands--that sideplate that most people can't remove with a strap wrench came off the reel. How is a mystery, but it did happen.

I guess the half dozen guys (that I know personally) who have had the shoulder bolt on the handle snap while jigging the Canal with their brand new 275s this year didn't KILL their VS, but it sure KILLED their fishing for the night unless they had a back-up reel with them. I'd classify that as a wounded reel for sure.

[BassDawg]

Originally Posted by Mike P

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop?

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

While that much is true, and VERRRRY SAD, what is also true is the flip side of what's NOT happening in China. One of the primary reasons they can offer lower mfg costs is because they have no standards to measure up to. Here we have OSHA, BBBureau, Industry watchdogs, and one of the biggest impacts to many companies' bottom lines is the way the insurance conglomerates of the "Good Ole US of A" have been fleecing corporate Amercia and driving our economy for decades.

Ever since The Great Depression, the employer driven insurance and bennies system has been moving towards the place where we are now. The Program is simply NOT cost effective to the bottom line. Over there, the CEO's can finally realize/recoop some real fiscal profit and begin to establish some real net worth. Do we know how close they've come to going under while trying to provide the "Best Damn Reel in the World"? Does anyone honestly think that the good People of Tulsa want their jobs, product, their "niche" being niched in China?

While it is entirely possible to produce good reels on foreign soil, and I'm all for China becoming a capitalistic society.....................

In the process it does NOT make sense to me to cut the NUTZ right off of our domestic workers because our insurance and benefits pkgs need to be rethunk. Likewise, if the foreign manufacturers had to compete fairly and measure up to the current American Standards of fair wage, insurance, workman's comp, breaks every two hours, unions, quality control standards, enuff VP's to retool the whole line, etc. etc., then I think that we would find many of our jobs return to American soil.

Perhaps the silver lining is that on the other side of this current economic trend, ownership~management~labor could sit down and negotiate terms that would lead them all to higher profit margins and long term employment practices.

I don't blame VS for trying to leverage their position, ZEBCO is somewhat to blame because without demand......; but this whole concept of moving labels overseas has been prevalent and profitable for sometime now, and it SUX!! It is very sad that we can't seem to figure out how to correct the workplace, so that we can restore US dominance to the world marketplace.

[Adam_777]

If Pete says the thing is the same except the annodizing is better.Thats good news.Would have been worse if he said the new plastic handle and balsa drag knob wear out quick.Pete knows what he's talking about.He also said earlier in the year.So who knows how long they have been making them over there could date back 3 or 4 years.The whole Tulsa thing could have just been a front for Zebco.So it looked like it was made in the USA.Most likely a few illegals stuffed into a confined area tearing down and re-assembling for peacework.My only advice is if you want one buy it,if you have one keep it.Just learn how to do the maintenance on your own .Get a bunch of seals,o-rings and lube.After you tear it down yourself and put it back together the only thing you can blame reel failure on is yourself.Not the illegals in tulsa or the china men or women trying to survive on peanuts.Big Business's are always looking to cut corners and save a buck sad but true.

[ProfessorM]

As we slowly move forward to manufacturing absolutely nothing in this country anymore. Sad but reality. The only thing you can hope for is the things down the road end up being sub par and they regret their business decision to do so. I don't like to wish ill will on anyone and probably am living in the good old days with my thoughts but going out of the country too make more of a profit and to put skilled manufactures out of a job in this country is a slap in the face to people who have chosen to learn a difficult trade for many years only to be thrown out of their lively hood. I am probably an A 1 hypocrite for making these statements as I am sure I own lots of stuff that was made overseas, but if you can't get them from this country you have no other choice. My view is if we continue to make the choice to make bigger profits by going with the cheapest labor, and cheapest quality, than no one will go into this trade, as is mostly the case now, and then what happens after all us die and we can't even make a widget anymore. As is always the case nowadays it's all about the money. It is in sports, business, everything. Make the most profit no matter what. IMO a short term view to make the most money with no concern on what will happen in the decades to come. Merry x-mas

[HESH2]

sad to say everything today is made in china.there are no mfg in the states anymore,at least in ct.all popular auto's are foreign,the american big 3 auto co are all close to going under along with there dealers.if vs was to lower the price to reflect the savings they would increase their market share.i'm not convinced ct. vs'a-reel ventures vs-zebco vs's ever made a turn your head profit.check your vs serial ####### and figure in your mind what they made for profit after dealer mark up and expenses,i think very little per reel.how many zee bass reels out there at $1200 each,not many.

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by Adam_777

If Pete says the thing is the same except the annodizing is better.Thats good news.

Just to be clear about the anodizing being "bettter" this isn't something anyone will really be able see even when looking for it. This was real nit-picking here.

On the Tulsa machined parts which were anodized silver you could often see slight trails or scratches where the machine cut the metal. Basically tiny irrelevent imperfections no one would notice unless you were REALLY hunting for them but at the same time you wouldn't see that sort of imprefection on a Abel or Tibor fly reel, a ZeeBaas, or other high end machined item so we had mentioned it to VS last year.

The silver reel we got early this year just didn't have any of that.

In hindsight, basically ignore that I even mentined it...

[maddog2020]

Ey Mike P, I don't agree w/ the folks that own VS that they won't lower the price what so ever. I don't like blue collar guys like myself losing jobs due to businesses closing because manufacturing was moved to China. Sad part is people will continue to buy VS reels regardless of where they are made and the cost.

I didn't doubt people destroy a VS reel at all, MikeP. None of my inner circle of friends have busted one (most don't fish the Canal either).The side plate coming off is due to poor engineering - it should have been threaded the opposite direction so if it did ever loosen up you would end up tightening it up from just cranking on the handle. Of course it confuses the service person working on it because people automatically think righty tighty and lefty loosey ..... LOL. The brainiac who came up with the non hex side plate deserves idiot award of the century - they did that to stop guys from self-servicing it essentially.

From a business stand point the only was VS was going to survive was for the production of it to go abroad otherwise they would have never taken on the endeaver IMHO. Would you rather pay a person $1/hr or $30/hr for the same job?

I had heard from a source that Van Staal use to get all of it's aluminum for free from some aerospace industry ( it was their scrap) and that eventually dried up when the person left.

So be sure now to advertise that your reel is USA made verses China & you can charge premium prices now..... LOL. Who wants to wager $$ that you WILL see this advertise on Ebay now and drive the prices up. Oh, America - ya gotta love the guy looking to make a buck on something. :P

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Pete_G

and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

After tooling is complete?
Maybe $10.

God bless profit.